Finishing Mark 9/6/22 traffic jam at pin

[FuzzyLogicParticipant]

Regarding room at mark, after follow up discussion and reading of the right rules, I agree that Fuzzy Logic was required to provide room at the pin for White Hawk. In believing that starboard had the right of way, I forgot that the starboard rule only applies to an approach to the windward mark. Although not a valid excuse for not providing enough room, I had just been forced to avoid port tacking Medusa, which had me steer to north toward the approaching White Hawk, which I gather had gybed on to port to avoid Fortitude or to approach the pin better. Because of our dealing with Medusa and false belief that we had right of way, Fuzzy Logic was not aware of the positioning of the approaching WH and F. At least during all this we made two successful maneuvers that avoided boat collisions. Definitely a good learning experience and as is often the case, problems arise either or both because of improper knowledge of rules and failure to keep apprised of the positions of all nearby boats, especially those out of the forward line of sight of the helmsperson

[WebmasterAdministrator]

The discussion in this link: https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/1585-at-the-finish-line may have some relevance. The discussion is a few years old, but in the discussion of Green’s rights if it had remained on starboard, I come away with a completely different conclusion than stated above. Does test rule 18 change anything?

Use this software to draw up the situation, as you saw it.

This is a guess at what might have transpired…

[JohnParticipant]

This is a pretty common issue and as I understand it 18.2 giving mark room applies at the pin and signal. Whitehawk and Fortitude were inside boats at the mark (pin) so if they were overlapped (Whitehawk definitely was not sure about Fortitude) then they had rights. If this is not the case I for one would certainly like to hear why that is.

Good idea Jeff to make use of this.

Also, I would encourage anyone who is not to subscribe to US Sailing and get the rules ap on your phone. Dave Perry’s more clear definitions and examples are attached to each rule which is super helpful.

Greyhound “Get on the bus!”

[WebmasterAdministrator]

The discussion at the very end (and sprinkled some in the middle) of this link implies to me that buoy room might not be in play here because the boats are not rounding a mark (just crossing a finish line). Proper course does not require any boat to sail near to the finish mark, so buoy room does not get turned on, at least as I read their argument. So, the port tack boats need to avoid the starboard tack ROW boats and they could have by taking the starboard tack boat’s stern and still finished.

Not sure I totally buy into their argument, since the finish mark still has a required side, and there probably were overlaps and inside/outside boats. But, I think I understand their point of view. But, they were deciding a different scenario, so maybe that plays into their written logic some.

We probably need a good diagram to fully understand how all this plays out.

[FuzzyLogicParticipantParticipant]

The rules don’t appear to address the finishing mark(s) differently from other marks, so that leaves us using mark rounding rules apparently. Although no one is forced to finish close to a mark as in a traditional mark rounding, there are times like this when several boats will converge at one end of the finish line and all would like to pass as close as possible. When that happens, it looks like Rule 18 comes into play, with the zone, overlaps and proper course. The rest of the time everyone is outside the zone so other regular rules apply, it appears.

Rich

[WebmasterAdministrator]

Consider this…

Giving mark room means allowing the boat requesting mark room to pass the mark on the correct side.

With a downwind finish, there is no proper course that requires the boat to sail close to the mark. (Maybe this needs clarification if one end is favored, but this is what some judges have written on the RRS forum.)

In this case, the port jibe boats could pass astern of the starboard ROW boat and therefore avoid the ROW starboard boat. The port jibe boats still would pass on the correct side of the mark, so mark room was provided. Thus, the port jibe give-way boats do not have any “right” to pass between the ROW starboard jibe boat and the finish pin if that interferes with the ROW starboard jibe boat.

[Tim TParticipant]

This is a simple Rule 18 situation. Two boats overlapped approaching the finish pin on port broad reach. WhiteHawk to leeward and closest to the pin, Fortitude with a half boat length overlap from astern and to windward.

Fuzzy coming in on starboard broad reach heading for the pin as well. With these directions, there was no question if the two port tackers had an overlap, they had been ahead of the overlap for several minutes.

WhiteHawk hails Fuzzy that she and Fortitude need room to round the finish pin. Fuzzy replies they are on starboard and have right of way. WhiteHawk replies “our inside overlap tumps their starboard”. Fuzzy seems to initiate altering her course after WH bears off to avoid a collision, the effect is to have WH hit the inflatable finish pin but allowing the two port tack boats escape room. WH then moves to re-round the pin and finish properly.

Original RRS 18 applies at all marks except the starting ones. Test Rule 18 does as well and expands its definition of mark room to include room for inside boat to clear the finish. In both existing and test rules 18.2a states an outside boat shall give inside boat room.

Fuzzy did not do so in time creating a bad situation for the inside two boats. If WH had protested, most likely Fuzzy would have been disqualified, Fortitude would have finished better and WH would not have re-rounded the finish pin dropping 6+ places.

Tim T

 

[Bill ConnersParticipant]

Fortitude’s experience:

Approaching Finish line with finish mark to stbd, 3 boats in the Zone, Fortitude & Whitehawk on port jibe / inside overlap, Tuesday’s Witch stbd jibe / outside. We thought on Fortitude that all 3 boats were overlapped at the Zone circle, with WH ahead, F next, TW next (and gaining). As we approached the finish, Tuesday’s Witch hailed “Starboard,” then replied to Whitehawk’s “Room” with another “Starboard.” The situation developing looked to us on Fortitude like 1) Tuesday’s Witch thinks they have right of way, 2) they aren’t acknowledging their obligation to give inside boats room “when boats are required to leave a mark on the same side” (rule 18.1), and 3) three boats are converging on a collision course, there’s no time to debate. With Tuesday’s Witch refusing room to F & W, I chose to avoid collision and steered to stbd, passing outside of the finish line. Whitehawk was forced (by avoiding me) to hit the mark; both F & W had to re-round to finish. Definitely a protestable event, but Fortitude chose to follow Whitehawk’s lead, and decided not to protest.

In reviewing the rules the next day, I found Dave Perry’s book “Understanding the Racing Rules” (thru 2020 but nothing’s changed) had a helpful discussion of a similar situation, described in Part 2 Section C, When the outside boat is the Right of Way boat, page 173. “When the outside boat has the right of way, she only needs to give the inside boat mark-room (defined term), and no more space than that.” “Note that rules 18.2 (a) & (b) don’t shift the right of way from the outside / right of way (S) boat to the inside / keep-clear (P) boat. S has a ‘temporary obligation’ to give P mark-room.” Also on page 180, see discussion on the question “What happens when the boat ahead is on port tack approaching a downwind finish line with a boat on starboard tack right behind her, and the port tack boat will pass through the zone about 2 lengths from the finish line.” The gist is the same – starboard tack is the ROW boat, but she has an obligation to provide room at the mark (finish mark, or any mark of the course with a required side) to inside boats that have “earned” mark-room at the Zone circle.

If I had it to do over again… I’d see the situation developing sooner and start working it sooner. Bill C.

[Bill ConnersParticipant]

Reply to Webmaster “no proper course at finish:”

I would argue that a boat’s proper course is to finish “as quickly as possible.” When positioned to the finish mark side of a finish line, her fastest course is “fastest path to the finish line,” ergo “straight ahead (downwind)” is her proper course. If she was ahead or inside-overlapped at the Zone circle, rule 18 absolutely gives her rights to mark-room following her “fastest path,” since the finish mark to her starboard is a “mark with a required side.”

Once the inside port boat (or boats) finishes and clears the starting line – she is no longer racing. At that point, USCG ROW rules apply. The port boats have to keep clear of the starboard tack/jibe boat, and the stbd tack ROW boat has a USCG obligation to “stand on,” keep a steady course, to give burdened vessels the to keep clear.

Bill C.

[FuzzyLogicParticipantParticipant]

After all comments and review of rules, I agree with White Hawk and Fortitude comments, though I am curious about Matt’s references to some calls by judges that ruled differently. I’m sorry not to have understood the rules on this situation and wonder if there is a way we can adjust the reported results, or does that run afoul of requirements for a timely protest?

Despite efforts to clarify the rules, I find the mark room rules and the situation involving finishing enough different from mark roundings to cause some confusion for me and apparently also a few judges. For roundings the space and course required is much more constrained than for a finish, since for the vast majority of the finish line and for most finishing courses sailed, the marks at the end and their zones are not involved. I surely wish I had stayed out of the zone. Perhaps before the RRS are revised again, we could clarify this in our next year’s SIs and also suggest to Dave Perry and others some clarification on this issue.

[WebmasterAdministrator]

The explanation that Tim T provided is spot on.

To Rich’s question about other possible interpretations of the RRS governing this incident:

What I saw discussed on the RRS forum was either misunderstood, not applicable, or flat out wrong. I think their discussion revolved around “exploding” the RRS definition of Mark Room into its 3 or 4 sub-parts, and looking at each part, one at a time. Part (a) talks about a boat providing another boat “room to sail to the mark,” which I think is the key aspect of Tuesday’s incident. I think they were making a case that if the boats are not rounding a mark, they are crossing a finish line, then proper course by definition does not go to a mark, it goes over the line between the marks; therefore, part (a) of the Mark Room definition would not get triggered on and the outside boat only had to provide room for the inside boat to pass on the correct side of the mark (as stated in the very first part of the Mark Room definition) (…but not provide room to sail to the mark). So, under this hypothetical reading of the rules, the inside boats were clear to pass astern of F.L., observing her ROW status and still pass on the correct side of the mark. It is an interesting argument.

But, I passed this reading by Dave Perry yesterday, and he shot it down. Dave Perry says the correct reading of this is that if the inside boat’s (the boat requesting Mark Room) track passes “close” to the mark, then Mark Room part (a) is turned on. “Close” has never been defined or interpreted officially, but within a boat-length or so would not be questioned. I think WH was on a course that would pass “close” to the mark, so part (a) of definition gets turned on. And part (a) is the definition of the Room that F.L. is required to give to WH for her to sail to the mark.

 

 

[FuzzyLogicParticipantParticipant]

Glad this was reviewed by Dave Perry. Perhaps under the new rule we have been using, “close” would be replaced by proper course, which would be as close as reasonable to pass on the correct side of pin without a chance of touching it. This would not allow the inside boat with rights to drive down the finishing line and force other boats to finish later. Bill also pointed out a good issue of the need of a port tack finisher to avoid starboard tack finishers immediately after finishing.

[WebmasterAdministrator]

Rich… Here is Dave’s commentary on the situation. This is all based on the drawing I provided him (included near the top of this thread), which was based on the scuttlebutt I heard on Tuesday, so the drawing is not a complete picture and may have errors. Also, Dave’s comments are based on the official RRS Rule 18 (not the test rule), so some adjustment needs to be made for the changes brought in by the test rule, and Tim covered those in his assessment.

Looking at your diagram:

1) When the first of Blue or Green’s hull entered the zone (was “in” the zone), you freeze the picture and ask one question: are the boats overlapped?

Clearly, whether Blue or Green’s hull entered the zone first, the boats were “overlapped”.

Note, rule 18 applies when at least one of the boats is “in the zone” (see rule 18.1). Rule 18.1 contains some exceptions for when rule 18 does not apply. None of those exceptions apply in your diagram, so rule 18 applies.

The definition Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap says that boats on opposite tacks are considered “overlapped” when rule 18 applies. So even if Green was on port tack when the first of the two boats entered the zone, they would be considered “overlapped”.

2) Now we know that rule 18 applied between the boats, and that they were overlapped when the first one entered the zone. Rule 18.2(b) requires Blue (the outside boat) to give Green (the inside boat) mark-room.

“Mark-room” is the space Green needs to sail to the mark, if her proper course is to sail close to the mark, and the space she needs to round or pass the mark. “Room” is defined as the space a boat needs while maneuvering in a “seamanlike way.”

3) Would Green’s proper course bring her “close” to the mark. Yes. Using the angles you have shown for all the boats throughout the drawing, Green would pass the mark within a length, probably much closer. “Close” in the definition M-R(a) has never been interpreted, but most judges are pretty lenient on what “close” means.

Note, this does not mean Green gets to sail her “proper course” as part of mark-room. Mark-room never includes room for a boat to sail her proper course. “Proper course” is only a test to see if Green gets “room” to sail to the mark. “Room”, again, is just enough space to sail in a “seamanlike way,” which might include sailing below her proper course.

4) Now we know Green was entitled to the space she needed to sail to and past the mark in a seamanlike way, which includes not touching the mark. She was trying to do that, but Blue restricted her space to the point where Green could not sail in a seamanlike way. In other words, Green was forced to either hit Blue or the mark. Therefore Blue did not give her mark-room and broke 18.2(b). Blue’s claim that she gave Green mark-room because Green could have luffed and gone astern of her is incorrect. Blue was required to give Green the space Green needed to sail to and past the mark in a seamanlike way. Had Blue not been there, Green would have been able to do so. Blue denied her that space and broke rule 18.2(b).

5) Green broke rule 31 (touching a mark), and rule 10 (port/starboard) because based on the diagram it is clear that S has a need to take avoiding action at pos 3. However, P was sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled, so she is exonerated for her breaches of rules 10 and 31 by rule 43.1(b), Exoneration.

[Bill ConnersParticipant]

One correction to Fortitude’s summary above, the protagonist boat in this finish mark encounter was in fact Fuzzy Logic, Rich Hubbell skipper. My apologies to Tuesday’s Witch, skipper & crew, for mis-identifying. Webmaster, if there is a way to edit the above Fortitude post with the correct starboard tack boat name, please do so.

On the discussion had with Dave Perry and the sketch at the beginning of this thread provided to him, it is important to note that the sketch shows the yellow port boat astern of the green port boat, but the observations of both Fortitude and Whitehawk were that both port boats were overlapped, and in turn overlapped at the Zone circle by the blue starboard boat (Fuzzy Logic). I believe Dave Perry’s comments make it clear that given these combined overlaps at the Zone circle and the closeness to the finishing pin, Fortitude owed Whitehawk room to finish, and Fuzzy Logic on starboard in turn owed “room to finish” to both Fortitude and Whitehawk.

Thanks and Mea Culpa to Tuesday’s Witch, Bill Conners.

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